Curse

ashes · Apr 02, 2010, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Soul Twisting + Shelter + Union = pretty nice idea - if it wasnt for those damn minions.

Minions will rip apart ur spirits within a sec, so my questions to you guy are:

Is it worth it to drop the minions completely? Do we rly need a MM to succeed in pve? I know the meat shield is nice, but cant the spirit provide a somewhat better "shield"?

FoxBat · Apr 02, 2010, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Depends how you look at things. If you want shelter to be a backup when other defenses fail (e.g. SY drops a few seconds), then minions are a bad idea. On the other hand if you want to keep your minions alive longer so mobs are less likely to come after you, then even the handful of shelter procs can be very valuable. My favorite bar in this style is 4-5 offensive spirits and a shelter on soul twisting bar, you just spend most of your soul twists respamming shelter.

As for union/displacement, these are going down nearly as fast whether you have minions or not, barring party blocking like aegis. These depend on the number of foes attacking, not how many targets they have or how weak they are. The important exception being monsters with AoE attacks hitting clumped minions, albeit H/H tend to clump about as bad.

Axel Zinfandel · Apr 02, 2010, 10:04 PM // 22:04

It depends, I would expect. In Hex heavy areas, minions can soak those up pretty well, and I don't think AI tends to target spirits much(?). In areas with lots of AoE, spirits run the risk of getting flat out destroyed also.

I'd venture to say take spirits, unless you are facing those types of situations.

EDIT: Also, minions are catered to a more caster-heavy group, where minions act as the frontline. Spirits would be better for balanced/physical groups

ashes · Apr 02, 2010, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Ive been playing with at least 1 MM in my party as long as i can remember (57months xP) i and thought maybe it was time to re-thing the entire defensive site of my team.

I dont play with SY in my party, as most of my friends quit gw (and i mostly play caster roles)- i know it sounds sad, but thats the truth QQ

ashes · Apr 02, 2010, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Or maybe i should start playing SY! warrior for example and run a hero set up like this?
I just kinda like the ST idea <3

Midnight Sands · Apr 02, 2010, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashes

Or maybe i should start playing SY! warrior for example and run a hero set up like this?
I just kinda like the ST idea <3

Tbh, SY!+a ST rit is overkill..

Daesu · Apr 03, 2010, 12:23 AM // 00:23

You can use a ER Protect if you are traveling with a bomber MM. If not, you can use a ST defensive rit.

There are also different types of MM even though the minion bomber has been the most common because minions dont last long in HM. But with a ST defensive rit, they can, so maybe a ST rit can allow other types of MM (e.g. Fiends) to also shine in HM.

Shayne Hawke · Apr 03, 2010, 01:36 AM // 01:36

The real strength of minions is how much damage they soak up from enemy mobs. If you're running a ST Rit, it's safe to drop minions altogether, since you'll already be having plenty of damage reduction.

Chthon · Apr 03, 2010, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Depends how you look at things. If you want shelter to be a backup when other defenses fail (e.g. SY drops a few seconds), then minions are a bad idea. On the other hand if you want to keep your minions alive longer so mobs are less likely to come after you, then even the handful of shelter procs can be very valuable. My favorite bar in this style is 4-5 offensive spirits and a shelter on soul twisting bar, you just spend most of your soul twists respamming shelter.

As for union/displacement, these are going down nearly as fast whether you have minions or not, barring party blocking like aegis. These depend on the number of foes attacking, not how many targets they have or how weak they are. The important exception being monsters with AoE attacks hitting clumped minions, albeit H/H tend to clump about as bad.

This. Whether defensive spirits + minions is a great move or a really dumb one depends on whether you're relying on the spirits for vital mitigation or efficient mitigation.

chullster · Apr 03, 2010, 10:36 AM // 10:36

When I am running the defensive bar, I use rit lord rather than ST with those 3 defensive spirits, they come with a lot more health/armour etc and using armour of unfeeling and summon spirits, you can keep them up pretty much all the time, and I use an MM hero too.

After all this time, don't you think the little guys deserve to get some help from your spirits?

Luminarus · Apr 03, 2010, 02:55 PM // 14:55

I like minions because when I run warrior and throw in barbs/mop minions turn that into a damage powerhouse.

Ney Matogrosso · Apr 05, 2010, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Well, I don't see the problem here, I run the protection build with the 3 spirits and Armor of Unfeling and 5 Discord with minions and one SS Curse necro (yes, me and a friend with heroes and he is a necro too, but with offensive spirits) in areas with many AoE foes, we run the mission Against the Char in HM and the spirits be quite well, the only problem is that my energy runs down more quicly than I spect but, Boom of Creation manage it reasonably. Much minions means a very good barrier/damage and even with the spirits dying fast, you can mantain 3 times spawning all the spirits and you probably wont be trouble because all spike will be absorbed, but if it isn't enough to kill the foes, or you pull too many or your offensive power is not enough, but in this case, necros with Discord plus protection spirits was better than I usually played with my Imbagon plus Discord necros, the build is very overpower...

Infanta · Apr 17, 2010, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Do you think a hero can run the ST build with heal area in place of Summon Spirits?

Arctica · Apr 18, 2010, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infanta

Do you think a hero can run the ST build with heal area in place of Summon Spirits?

I would rather put those points to Spawning Power instead of Healing Payer and put signet of creation on the bar. The hero will summon those defensive spirits whenever they are down, energy can be a problem though, when the team is taking heavy damage.

Daesu · Apr 18, 2010, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ney Matogrosso

Well, I don't see the problem here, I run the protection build with the 3 spirits and Armor of Unfeling and 5 Discord with minions and one SS Curse necro (yes, me and a friend with heroes and he is a necro too, but with offensive spirits) in areas with many AoE foes, we run the mission Against the Char in HM and the spirits be quite well, the only problem is that my energy runs down more quicly than I spect but, Boom of Creation manage it reasonably.

Until your BoC gets stripped in areas with enchant removals.

ST+defensive spirits work counter to minion bombers who need their minions to explode. That just doesn't seem optimal to me.

Ney Matogrosso · Apr 20, 2010, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Until your BoC gets stripped in areas with enchant removals.

ST+defensive spirits work counter to minion bombers who need their minions to explode. That just doesn't seem optimal to me.

Well could be antagonistic build but the minions will explode anyway or be hit of the foes or by your degen, so, better death minions than death heroes or me. One time that the minions that I use are lvl 10-11 and die fast, the protection inside they are quite irrelevant they have few HP, but, keeping my hero/human team alive is essencial and the minions always help being a flesh barrier, doing melee damage (even low), being a distraction to foes or exploding and spreading poison.
The protection build of the Rt is excelent, I would take a risk to say that could be better than Imbagon in protection, maybe not so fun, but have future XD.

Daesu · Apr 20, 2010, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ney Matogrosso

Well could be antagonistic build but the minions will explode anyway or be hit of the foes or by your degen, so, better death minions than death heroes or me. One time that the minions that I use are lvl 10-11 and die fast, the protection inside they are quite irrelevant they have few HP, but, keeping my hero/human team alive is essencial and the minions always help being a flesh barrier, doing melee damage (even low), being a distraction to foes or exploding and spreading poison.
The protection build of the Rt is excelent, I would take a risk to say that could be better than Imbagon in protection, maybe not so fun, but have future XD.

Yes they explode anyway, it just takes longer for them to explode because of spirit protection which happens at the expense of the spirit's hp. You want to conserve the spirit's hp to protect team members, not spend them on minions which are suppose to explode anyway.

With SoS and other spirits helping to tank, is a firm minion wall really that necessary as to sacrifice spirit's hp for it?

If I bring a minion bomber, I rather spend the hero slot on an ER protect than a ST defensive rit, for targeted protection and SoH for my melee.

Life Bringing · Apr 20, 2010, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Lose the spirits and keep the MM. Defensive spirits are a waste.

Arctica · Apr 20, 2010, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Defensive spirits are a waste.

Hmmm, I don't think so. It is true however that minions and an ST rit in the same team is not the best option. If you have an ST rit, you don't need minions to soak up damage. Whether you pick an MM or a defensive rit: your choice, both work well.

Life Bringing · Apr 21, 2010, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arctica

Hmmm, I don't think so. It is true however that minions and an ST rit in the same team is not the best option. If you have an ST rit, you don't need minions to soak up damage. Whether you pick an MM or a defensive rit: your choice, both work well.

I think so. Defensive spirits promote a degenerate playstyle full of leeroying and other bad junk. Most of the time, if your defensive spirits go down for whatever reason, you'll proceed to wipe because you didn't take the time to pull properly. On the other hand, Minions takes care of annoying hexes and a large amount of the AoE that would have fallen to the party. They also keep enemy melee from screwing up your casters by providing a meatshield. Minions can also actually do damage through Death Nova and random 10s, while ST is a purely defensive build.